Brohi Sahib is hard to define - at 83 years of age, he has seen and done so many things that it is hard to describe him. He has spent time in the Pakistan Civil Service, the Royal Indian Navy (before independance from the British), and as a prolific writer (just to name a few of his careers). He has travelled all over the world, and has an understanding of the human condition that could only come from having had such a long, colorful lifetime spent in observation and intellectual reflection.
I met him first through my uncle Abbas, and went to interview him at his home (a modest flat right near the Clifton Bridge in Karachi). As an aside, Brohi Sahib's brother - L.K. Brohi - is a famous lawyer in Pakistan who has made quite a bit of money defending some of the top people in Pakistani society - think F. Lee Bailey. Brohi Sahib seems to have spurned that materialistic path, as surely it was open to him by virtue of his intellect and familial connections). After explaining my trip and the purpose of the interview, he told me not to waste my tape on him and to just sit and chat instead. What followed was a long discourse on life and man's place in the universe, and I only wish I could begin to relate the stories he told me. At the end, Brohi Sahib got up from his chair and went out of the room - when he came back, he had a tattered, 40 year old book in his hands which he presented to me. The book is called 'The Story of San Michelle' by Axel Munthe, and Brohi Sahib told me it was one of the top 4 books he had read in his life. I think he was intrigued by my travels, and recognizing my thirst for knowledge he presented me his personal copy of one of his favorite books - I now carry the book in my backpack as one of my most cherished posessions (right next to my passport). Please read it if you get a chance - it is a book about love of all living things, and one that continues to inspire me on my journey.
A month later, in mid January, I returned to Brohi Sahib's house to try to interview him again. After presenting him with a book I had just finished (Che Guevara's Motorcycle Diaries), we sat down to some tea and Brohi - now a bit more comfortable with me - allowed me to begin taping his words. Here is the bulk of our discussion - the only unfortunate thing is that I cannot adequately impart the way he speaks - it is through a heavy accent, with slow and measured words delivered with Paki-style inflections.
FASOTE: Brohi Sahib - what are your thoughts on the United States of America?
Brohi: Regarding the USA - I hate what happened on September 11th. I have profound regard and respect because of the advancement they have made to the human knowledge and the scientific progress and the human effort to advance what you call democracy throughout the world. So, when you read the life of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington and such, you find that these people are the real American mind, that these people are human beings. They were in a foreign land, but they put two and two together and they have reached the pinnacle of progress - material and scientific progress. The effort they have made - in their laws, their trade, their methods of governance - these are all good. Well, at least they were not sadists, they were not cruel. It was something you can understand, though they did deal with the local inhabitants - the Red Indians - very badly. Those poor people deserve sympathy because they were people of the Earth - you should have charity and sympathy with them instead of allowing them to remain in the state they are in.
FASOTE: And what about America post September 11th?
Brohi: Later on this is the aggression they have done in the name of terrorism. They have proved to be the worst criminals on Earth - what are they crying about? They did the same thing to the Japanese! Hiroshima and Nagasaki - by throwing a couple of bombs, they destroyed lakhs (Urdu term for 100,000s) of people, and some people were sick for 50, 60 years afterwards. You know, some people think that 9/11 was organized by the Japanese? Because, I don't think that Osama Bin Laden and a few others - sitting in Tora Bora thousands of miles away with their one yard beards - could have managed to arrange a simultaneous assault with 5 or 6 planes on the World Trade Center. Simultaneous! It must have been arranged by either the Israelis or the Japanese, who are equally scientifically mature. It is not Osama. Perhaps it will take him a half century more to achieve that level of smartness and efficiency.
FASOTE: So why did America attack Afghanistan?
Brohi: There must be other reasons, which you will come to know after 20 years. Nowadays, the politics are one of fear - everything is covert. The media, the newspapers - they create such a smoky screen that it is impossible to find out what is the truth. But, we know the Arabs, we know the Pathans, we know jihad - and this country has been torn to pieces over the last 56 years, this Afghanistan. There is not a single house that is safe from destruction. I have been to Afghanistan, I know Afghanis, I know their history - and these are poor people. Other people - Pakistanis and Arabs, all with long beards and similar ideas - they are the ones who came and threw a few bombs. The Afghans had nothing to do with it. This can happen in poor countries. What America has done is the same as bombing all the sick and injured people in a hospital, or bombing a nursery of children - it is something that amounts to this. Why bomb them? War should be equal. You cannot put Hercules on one side and a man from Liliput on the other side - it is not justice. An elephant stepping on a lizard is cruelty to animals. I will always worry about nature, because there is a law of physical evolution that you can't get away from. Supposing you murder me - you think you are going to remain in peace? No, it is mathematically impossible. But, it does not take mathematical or scientific formulas to have this view. America is the greatest power - it is the only one who can dictate. It is a superpower, no doubt about it. And no one, not even China and Russia combined, can challenge it.
FASOTE: So, what I think you are saying is that there is a natural law of retribution, and one way or another something will happen to America to even things out?
Brohi: Absolutely, they cannot get away from it. Because, you see - I have been reading history. Throughout time - where there is land once upon a time there was water, where there is a volcano once upon a time there were clouds. Stars change, rivers change, climates change, Earth changes - everything under the sun changes except for one thing - and that is human nature. Human nature doesn't change, but everything else does. My father, my grandfather - thousands of people, they are all gone. Nothing is there - they are in the graveyard. If I was to take you to see them you would say 'Where are they?'. And, whatever little bit there is now will also be gone. And, some other people will then come. This Earth does not belong to anyone - this is like a traveller's inn, like a hotel - only for a few days. Everything will be taken away. Death has another key to the safe where you lock up your money. It comes and takes everything away from everyone.
FASOTE: And this will happen to America?
Brohi: This happens to all over. You see lots of civilizations that have been destroyed - people in Mesopatamia, people in Moenjadaro, you know, places where now there are ancient mounds and ruins. Cities have been destroyed, and this is not just for sport. There is something behind it. People say there is a limit to human injustice - the human being is himself responsible, because there is an element in humans that allows him to question things - it is a special creation. Humans can insinuate why you have this and why you have done that - he can lodge a protest. You see, that is the point - in humanity, we go on about charity, and that innocent people should never be hurt. I do not allow my grandchildren to catch birds - I say no, they have wings, and wings are used for flying. It is good to see a bird flying. Human beings have a short life - I don't understand why Mr. A kills Mr. B - he is going to die anyway! Humans are destined to die - both of them! Why expedite it? Nobody has lived more than 150 years. People die.
FASOTE: But isn't that the ultimate expression of power - for one man to kill another? Mr. A cuts short Mr. B's life to show his power over him.
Brohi: But he himself will die. This is foolish. What are you going to do with a bullet? He may slip on some wet ground and die. Even a mosquito bite can kill. You don't need a tank or a bomber - people die anyway. The question of murder is - what does it bring for the murderer? If you pull a mango plant out of the Earth, what good does it do anyone? People rotting in jails, people hanging - I don't understand this. A father punishes his son so that he won't steal again, but if he kills him then what point does it make? Nobody is learning anything. The human being is a very poor creature - he has a time limit. The point is that certain things are useless - America is a giant, Afghanistan is a baby, and for them to go and kill them and call them terrorists is useless. Who the hell are you? You are the father and mother of terror.
FASOTE: So how do you define terrorism?
Brohi: Terrorists create a certain atmosphere so that other people are unable to breathe for fear. Because in fear you senses are worthless - you are stupefied. I have seen this - you know in this country men who are sentenced to hanging can appeal, but if the appeal is denied they will be hung the next day usually. One man was denied his appeal, and overnight his hair turned grey. This is fear. You know that Christ, when he was being led to the cross - according to 'the Life of Christ' - due to fear, blood started oozing from his skin pores. With fear, you cannot work, you cannot walk. Once my house was on the banks of the river Indus. I went to walk to the bathroom - they used to say my house kissed the Indus, and I used to say as long as they don't embrace I'm allright (laughter) - and when I entered the bathroom there was a black cobra sitting there looking at me. The bathroom was small, and I was already inside - I think he came in from a pipe that went into the river. He was about 7 to 8 feet - a very dangerous snake. And he started hissing and flared out like cobras do. And I was forced - when I go to the bathroom, I must be on the verge or I cannot go - and when I saw him everything came out (laughter). I grabbed a hold of a bar on the ceiling and raised my bare feet up off the ground and was worried - what do I do? Well, I decided to jump on his head - if I missed I was dead, but what else could I do? So, when I saw my opportunity, I jumped on its head with one foot, and with the other heel I started to hit it. It wrapped it whole body around my leg and started to squeeze - to this day this leg (pointing to the left one) is weaker than the other. But, I was able to kill it - I think it was due to that extra energy a person gets in such situations.
FASOTE: You mean adrenaline?
Brohi: Yes yes. I have felt this a few times - when I was in the Royal Indian Navy and my life was at stake a few times, I felt it then too.
FASOTE: And this to you is terror?
Brohi: Yes - after I killed it I had a terrible fever for 6 or 7 days. I had killed it, but I was still so scared that my body shut down. Terrorism does this - it effects every part of a person's being.
FASOTE: Do you believe, spiritually or politically, that there is one right answer for mankind?
Brohi: No - I mean, I respect you whether you believe in one God or a society of Gods. Whether you believe in one prophet or twenty prophets, I am not worried about it. So long as you are a believer, you are ok. Whatever it is - whether you worship idols are Buddha, as long as you believe you are good with me. You are a human being - that is religion. Religious thinking - that is your affair, not mine.
FASOTE: But what about the statement all Muslims must make: There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his Messenger?
Brohi: Yes, this is my belief, but it does not mean that someone else must believe this.
FASOTE: So, as long as someone's beliefs don't hurt anyone, you are ok with them?
Brohi: Of course. Where belief is concerned - you see, everyone has freedom - mentally what you are thinking is yours. We don't interfere into that sphere of someone else's life - that is your affair. God has given free will to everyone before he created this world - the human being is a very strange animal in this way. As someone once said 'He roams free but he is everywhere in chains', but that is a different thing. You see - man is free. We don't interfere with one another's belief in God. This is my personal belief.
FASOTE: Yes - this is your personal belief. But, in general, I find that many Muslims want to tell other people what to do and what the 'right' way is to worship God.
Brohi: Those who take the knife and say 'Believe me or I will kill you' - I don't believe them, they are wrong. Certain people take the knife and say 'Believe as I believe' - how can I? It is mathematically impossible because each creation is unique. We are not mass produced by machines - every human being is a world in itself. It has likes, dislikes, beliefs - everyone is different and nobody knows what is going on in someone else's top story. You have to accept this. Before you discuss human beings, you must accept the uniqueness of our creation. All women look alike - then why do you fall in love with one particular woman? She has the same two eyes, the same two ears, same mouth. Why do certain people say if they don't marry her they will kill themselves? Why?
FASOTE: Ok, I think I understand. Let's move on - what is the best thing about Pakistan?
Brohi: Have you been to the villages?
FASOTE: Once, last year. But not for a long enough period of time.
Brohi: You must go. You must see it to realize it. People there have blind faith - faith in God, in the book written by Allah. There is a book written by a western author - I think her name is Christina Lamb - in which she says she went to a Pakistani village and saw a sick woman. She had no money to pay a doctor, but was happy because she said that Allah would cure her. Everywhere, people live on faith alone - they don't even have food but they believe Allah will provide and they will be happy. I cannot smell God, I cannot touch God - I simply believe he is, and he is here. But, I can't define him and I haven't seen him - I don't know anyone who has, but I still believe. You know, at this stage of life - I am 83 years old, and I think I have the proof that he exists. At times I have seen his work and known it could only be Him. You see - you must live by faith - this is where Islam comes in. And the people of the villages show this faith in a marvelous way.
FASOTE: Who is your hero?
Brohi: Allah and Mohammed. I have not been able to honor the obligations associated to their names, so I can say no one else.
FASOTE: And what are those obligations?
Brohi: You should be able to live maybe one hundreth, one thousanth like them? No, I haven't been able to do that. I have failed. There are other people who are better than me at it, but it is a blessing to have this ideal in your life. Because, it makes you better. I had a friend - a Russian ship captain - who used to love vodka. When people gve him whiskey, he would say 'this is like water!'. So, I think the rest of the religions are like water (laughter). But, there are plenty of humans who have brought us sun and light, but for me there is only Allah and Mohammed, and I am grateful to them for showing me the right path.
FASOTE: Thank you, Brohi Sahib.
Brohi: You are welcome, young Ali.
