Mahvesh grew up mostly in Pakistan, but has lived other places in the world and attended McGill University in Montreal. She works as both a producer and anchor for a Pakistani TV station, and is currently working for BBC Pakistan. I spoke with Mahvesh while she was on vacation in Thailand in late January, 2003.
FASOTE: How do you define terrorism?
MM: I suppose I would define it as willful bodily damage to someone else, although in a wider perspective it should be willful damage to any thing that does not belong to you. I know people who may call graffiti terrorism, because that property is not yours. But, I guess I would define it as an activity that does incite fear or hatred and is completely and utterly unnecessary.
FASOTE: So, with that definition, would war qualify as terrorism?
MM: Well, as we were talking earlier, I think that the war against Afghanistan fits my definition of terrorism, simply because I don't think two people were actively involved in it - I think there was only one person causing it. To me, it's terrorism - if people are going to go out and just start deciding that something's not good enough or it needs to be changed, or that they need to prove a point - whether it's the 9/11 scenario or whether its Afghanistan or Iraq or anything else - then yes I think its terrorism.
FASOTE: So, what are your thoughts on the USA?
MM: The U.S. is a largely culturalless land, I suppose. Its just a huge, huge mound of people from all over the place, who may in their little microcosm have culture, but in the overall macrocosmic look at the U.S., I would say no - its mostly about the corporate world. Its a corporate culture, if you can call that a culture. I think its just so large, and there are so many people from so many places, that it doesn't matter what your literacy rate is or whether everyone goes to school etc. etc. - there are still a lot of ignorant people because you are not aware of so much more. In my experience, people from the States are largely ignorant of what's going on in the rest of the world, in terms of sensitivity at least. They may read the newspapers, but again those are their newspapers, and they're learning only what they are supposed to know.
FASOTE: And what are your thoughts on its political stance - the government?
MM: I think its a farce. I mean, George Bush is going around saying he wants to get Saddam because he tried to kill his father.
FASOTE: Yes - I believe the words were 'He tried to kill my daddy'.
MM: Exactly. I mean - what is this? Is this a family issue? It's almost a joke, and I think because the average American is not aware of what's going on around the world - to them it's just patriotism - if someone turns around and says 'I love my family' it seems like a big thing to them. I mean - we don't have that. We're never going to turn around and put our grandparents in a nusring home and let them rot there. The Americans will do that - their social culture works in a selfish manner, and I think their political culture works in this way as well.
FASOTE: But let me ask you - if Pakistan had the same power America has, don't you think it would be worse off?
MM: I think it's a matter of absolute power corrupting absolutely. They are the most powerful nation in the world - it is as simple as that. They want control of everything - the only thing they don't control completely is oil, and that's what they've been targeting for a long time - Bush Sr. did it, and no Bush Jr. is doing it too. Once they have that, God knows what the fuck's going to happen. I don't know how much of what the American politicians are doing is good for their country - they seem to have a very skewered perspective as to what is good for their country. Not saying that Pakistani politicians are any better - they're not. The ones who have power are also corrupt. I guess it's just human nature - when you have a great deal of power, how many people would use it for the good of someone else and not help themselves first? Isn't that it - survival of the fittest?
FASOTE: So, maybe America isn't that bad? Maybe their just a little more honest about their greed?
MM: We all know that, but as far as politics are concerned, I don't think Bush is the least bit honest because he says he is doing this all for the benefit of America. Is it really? I mean - yeah, what happened on September 11th was horrible, and a lot of innocent people died, which would have been bad anywhere. But it was a lot worse because it was in America, and because no one thought that someone could penetrate that fortress. Ever. If it had happened anywhere else in the world it wouldn't be such a big deal, probably. that many people are killed every single day in this world.
FASOTE: But, this was in one place in such a horrific manner.
MM: Does that make it worse?
FASOTE: I don't know.
MM: Every war and all killing is just as bad. Agreed - this was an act of terrorism, pre-planned and smoothly executed. But, Hitler did the same thing. Napolean killed a lot of people too. the only reason the Americans think it is so bad is simply because it was one target, and it was uncalled for. But, if you think about it, the people who orchestrated it probably thought 'Let them have a taste of their own medicine'. It was just, instead of coming with tons of bombers and carpetbombing everything, they went after one target, trying to kill as many as possible there.
FASOTE: What do you think about the Islamic world?
MM: I guess I don't think much about the Islamic world. I guess it's because Islam is, by definition, a religion of peace and yet, all the things we do are clearly not peaceful. If it was united, it could possibly be a supreme power - a force to be reckoned with. But, religion has been twisted, and Islam more so. You know how they say religion was given to certain times because that's all he could handle? Like, man could only handle paganism at that time so he worshipped trees and then he moved onto something like Zorastrianism, which is not considered pagan. Zorastrians, of which my mother was one, believe that there is an all powerful divine force that is manidested through nature, with fire being the most pure form of this nature. They usually will bury the dead in an open air tower so that the body can naturally decompose and the body can go back to nature. I've noticed, since my mother died, my Zorastrian end of the family has not been able to handle the fact that she is buried in a graveyard. Not because of the Muslim factor, but simply because they are not used to having a symbol of death - a tombstone or a grave where someone's body is memorialized. They just don't do that - they leave their dead to go back to nature and they'd have a picture up on their altar in the back of the room to remember the person as they were when they were alive. To me, there is no one in that grave - there is no connections between me and some body in a grave - what does that have to do with her? The spirit is more important than the physical world, because you are going to have to leavce it some day. But, getting back to Islam - when Zorastrianism came down that was all that humanity could handle at that point, and then slowly religions developed, with Islam being the last true religion, at least that's what people say - all prophets after that are false prophets.
FASOTE: Well, at least Muslims believe that. The Mormons may disagree, and I am sure there are other religions who would too.
MM: Well - maybe. But I guess the larger religions would believe that Islam is the final religion to come down.
FASOTE: Muslims do, but Christians don't. They think their guy was the last one - the hardcore ones think we are heretics for following Prophet Mohammed.
MM: Oh - I did not know that. But anyway, as mankind developed, they were given harder and harder religions and harder and harder ways to live their lives. And Islam, being the last large one to come, is really hard. It's tough - it's hard on the people and hard on their lives because it is very demanding. Of course, all this is assuming that there is a grand plan and that God does exist, but if so, then Islam was given last because it was most complete and, therefore, the hardest to follow. If the common Muslim could follow it the way it is supposed to be, and if they could learn to be a bit more moderate about it, then yeah - I think it could become a force to be reckoned with. But right now, it's too fragmented - you've got Turkey on one extreme and Malaysia on another and us somewhere in middle. You've got Muslims in India who hide the fact that they are Muslims, just like you have Hindus in Pakistan that are shit-scared to tell anyone they are Hindu because someone mike knock on their door and burn their house down. The same thing is happening in Gujarat now. I guess my problem with religion is that it causes so much fracturing. Even within Islam, how many fragments do we have?
FASOTE: I'm no sure. But, do you think that Islam and the Judeo-Christian world we call the 'west' can co-exist pacefully.
MM: Why the hell not? You know - I've read about schools in Palestie and Israel where all the different children study together, ok? There was one particular time hen one Palestinian teenager was killed and the entire Israeli community came over to personally apologize for what had happened, even though they had nothing to do with it. That's beautiful. If there are people in the world today that can feel that way then I don't see why all of us can't. Religion is not politics, but it has become that way. The more organized it gets... it just shouldn't be this way. You keep your spirituality in your own home and I'll keep mine. I mean - it's sad that all Muslim males between the age of 16-45 hav to go through so much just to get a U.S. visa.. It's just become a blanket statement that everyone thinks that Muslims are bad - I mean, oes one bad apple mean everyone sucks that badly? I mean - it's not just the Americans that are guilty of it - we Pakistanis are prejudice against Hindus too. We have Hindu family freinds in Karachi, and our cook refuses to serve them because he comes from an ignorant background. As far as he's concerned, Hindu means Indian, and Indian means bad. It's not like it's his fault - it's just what he's been socialized to believe. Maybe what we need is a huge revolution of education - not just academic in regards to degrees and such but in regards to awareness, or tolerance. At the end of the day, all religions are the same - be good to each other, right?
FASOTE: Right. OK - let's move on. Do you think the war on terrorism will help or hurt humanity?
MM: I think it will really screw everything up. It's just becoming all encompasing. OK - when George Bush came into office - dodgy enough as that was with that whole Florida thing - he sat around for a few months twiddling his thumbs with no agenda. He had nothing to do. America pretty much runs itself - it is a wll oiled machine. And suddenly, 9/11 happens and he has a huge agena. At first, h had a tiny little goal - he's gonna get Osama and he's gonna get him good, even though Osama was CIA trained and stayed one step ahead of them. We don't even know if he got him, but fine, they got the Taliban and the huge natural resources that came with them of course. And then there's nothing else to do so let's pick up the family project and go after Saddam under the guise of the 'war on terrorism'. And then there's that whole 'axis of evil' thing - I mean, America probably houses more terrorists than anywhere in the world! There are so many people there and you have no idea what is goig on. I mean - those 9/11 people didn't fly those planes in from somewhere else, right? But yo uwon't admit weakness because you are America, so you turn around and say we are going to beat the crap out of Saddam and get all his oil too. And they exist that the Iraqi people are not happy but they had a referendum where he got 99% approval.
FASOTE: But come - that was obviously rigged. The guy is a brutal dictator and is obviously bad. But - these are the politics behind it. I want to know what you think the war's effect will be on humainty?
MM: OK - let me make it simple. It's just creating a lot of hatred in the rest of the world, and there's no need for it. Hatred against Muslims, and backlash hatred at the Americans. Just like now, whenever white people see a brown person they think he is a Muslim so lets hate hime, and now when bron people see white people they think he is just like Bush so lets hate him too. I mean - I guess what gets me most mad is - who the hell are you? Who is Bush to save the world? This war on terrorism - all it does it put the words 'war' and 'terrorism' in your face everyday, and that's not good.
FASOTE: OK - let's get a little more positive, shall we? What is the best thing about Pakistan?
MM: the people. I mean, besides the fact that the average person is really slow and irritating (laughter) - no, no, just kidding. It's defintiely the people, especially with what I do - I get to see so many people from all social sectors of society. Everybody wants to be good and do good, and I bet there's lots of good people in the world, but in Pakistan we have a huge amount. Of course, I think i is unfortunate that a lot of the people who can make a difference don't because I guess they're just trying to save their own ass. But - back to the good - Pakistan is so diverse, and there are so many people from so many different backgrounds that it makes it really rich. I think Pakistani people also have a great sense of fun - it's amazing that within the constraints, whether they be social or economic or educational, within those limitations they manage to do a great deal. It's amazing. And also, the sense of family that are people have is great - the loyalty people have in taking care of their own is really great. I mean - yes, sometimes it makes you want to scream because everyone is always on top of you, but it's because we are a loving people. I guess you could compare us to the Italians in that way, in that we are always taking care of our family. It gives you a sense of security to know that your family will always be there - it gives you a sense of belonging.
FASOTE: What I find amazing about Pakistanis is that they've been disappointed time and again - in their 50+ years as a country they have consistently had hard time after hard time. But, through it all, the people are still so positive, so upbeat. I would think they would be more cynical. Yeah - they are upbeat. I mean - this time when the elections took place and the pro-establishment party - the PMLQ, won the majority of the seats - so many people talked about it being rigged, and so many people said this was wrong and that was wrong and blah blah blah. And at the end of it all - on the fourth day after the election, we went out and sent camera crews all over the country just to see what people were saying. And everyone said they didn't care what happened - they just wanted whoever was in power to take them in a positive direction, and people really believed it was possible.
FASOTE: Who is your hero?
MM: I don't think I have one.
FASOTE: So, you are your own hero, huh?
MM: Well - if you put it like that, I ould say that if everyone had themselves as a hero then the world would be a better place. You know - if everyone thought of themselves as the knight in shining armour, coming in to save the damsel in distress. I think it would make the world a better place to live.
FASOTE: Thank you for your time.
