This interview was conducted in late January 2003 at a law office in downtown Kuala Lumpur. The interviewees were Azli Saffeh and Rohizaan Ahmed, two staff lawyers of the firm, and with Mohammed Shahrizad Mohammed Diah, a retail financial services provider for Prudential in Malaysia. All three men are Malay Muslims, and all three represent for me a good example of the thoughtful professionalism that characterizes many of Malay people I met.
FASOTE: Welcome, and thank you for sitting down with me. My first question is - what are your thoughts on the United States of America, both as a power and as a society?
Azli: I think America is very liberal, right? So, you can't say that all Americans are Christians or Jews or Muslims - they are all sections of American life. So when you say America - I guess I think of it as a power in the world that can change something but, unfortunately, the people that write the power - meaning your President and your Congress - is now moving in an infavorable direction for the Muslim people. Because, maybe what they're doing - this attacking Iraq in a forward defense strategy that they are implementing right now to safeguard America - that is what a government is supposed to do, right? Protect their people? But from my point of view, a Malaysian view, certain actions need to be justified and that is what is missing in the government of America right now. So when we say 'America', we are referring to the management, the people who hold the power, the decision makers. Most people here, when they say 'America', they mean the government, not the citizens of America. That means you, Mr. Ali (laughter). We do understand that - so when we comment negatively on the actions of the Americans, we mean the government and not the people.
Rohizaan: I totally agree with Azli here. Simply put, the tone of the government of America is arrogant. They just do whatever they want without considering other people's opinions. For example - the resolutions they have made in the U.N. - they totally disregard any input from the other countries of the world. Once they have made a decision, that's final. If I'm America, I say I'm going to attack Iraq, and everyone must listen to me - that's final.
FASOTE: And what I think you are saying is that it goes against the basic democratic principles of America?
Both: Yes.
FASOTE: OK, but let me ask you this. America has become this power because of its own inner strength - no one gave it to them. So couldn't an American say 'Well, we have the power, so you must comply. If you want a say, build up your own power and then we'll talk'. Essentially, they are the victors, and to the victors go the spoils.
Azli: But Ali, the question here isn't who won, the question is of doing the right thing. We Muslims - we don't dream of conquering the world. We just want to create a society where everyone can live in harmony - that's what Islam is all about, right? This is a Muslim way of thinking. But, as I said, this is not a question of what the superpower would like to do, whether they are Christian or Jew or Muslim. This is a question of humanity.
Rohizaan: When they say peace, it doesn't mean they can achieve peace by pressing other countries. So – you know, be considerate to other countries and people in the world so that people will respect you as a superpower and not be afraid of you as a superpower. That is the important thing.
FASOTE: And right now, do you believe that there is more respect, anger or fear towards the U.S.?
Azli: It is fear and anger - a mix. The rest of the world looks at America as a sort of role model - for industry, for progress, for a democratic model - everyone looks to America in adoration. But when it comes to this seemingly harsh policy towards Muslims - oppressing policy, although your president may say otherwise. And in real action, they intend war in Iraq, they have already done war in Afghanistan - these are looked at as oppressive acts towards Muslims. So, in this sense, people look at America with anger. But it is a mixed feeling. But, in the end, whatever America is doing is of great concern for the rest of the world - in Malaysia especially.
FASOTE: Why especially in Malaysia? You could say that you are far away and shouldn't care. Is it because you are a Muslim country?
Azli: Yousee - Islam or other religious concerns is a background story here in Malaysia. The main story here is for business, peace and prosperity. We are a new nation, and we needed a role model, so all this time we have been looking to America, to Japan to the east, and now we are looking a bit to the Chinese, all to find a model for us to become a model country. That's why, in Malaysia, it is of very special concern to watch what America, the superpower, is doing. In a nutshell, I would say that we strive to be America - that is why we have McDonald's, Burger King - everything that is American in Malaysia is most welcome (laughter).
Rohizaan: We love your movies. We know Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger...
Azli: Seriously - even our Malaysian movies are a copy of American ones.
FASOTE: OK - I think I understand. Moving on - what do you feel is the state of the Islamic world today?
Rohizaan: To me, the Islamic countries in the world are not united. They are of different opinions and are constantly arguing with each other. I mean - look at Iran and Iraq previously - they were at war for a long time. To me, they should be united to help their brother's in Palestine. Because, Palestine is surrounded by Arab countries, but they just let the Jews do whatever they like without interruption from the superpower, America. They should be together to uphold peace and the freedom of the Palestinian people. To me, simply put, they are not united.
FASOTE: OK - you mention freedom of the Palestinian people. How do you define freedom?
Azli: George Bush I think was referring to America as a beacon of freedom - I think that is what he thinks, huh? Does he think that the rest of the world is in envy of America as a beacon of freedom? Who is he referring to? The world is just a small place - we are all just trying to make a living. But, my answer to the question would be freedom is being allowed to do whatever you want to do, to sleep wherever you want to sleep, do whatever you want whenever you want - your choice. That's freedom. But, being a religious person, I must say that freedom is the ability to make your choices within the boundaries that your religion allows you, without any restraints from political powers.
Rohizaan: Yes - to be able to do that without invading anybody else's rights - that's freedom.
FASOTE: So with freedom comes a certain responsibility?
Both: True.
Azli: But, I guess that goes against the Jews doctrine (laughter). Their definition is different because they infringe on other's rights all the time.
FASOTE: Well, back when I had a job, I had an Israeli woman on my staff, and I got to know her a bit. I think she might say that it is the Israelis whose rights are being infringed upon, not the Palestinians. Until recently, Hamas and other extremist groups would even accept the state of Israel, which was created over 50 years ago. And whether you want to go back 50 years or 1000 years, they are there and you must accept that. I think there needs to be a 2 state solution and many Israelis may agree, but I think that many of them believe that the Arabs will never allow Israel to exist, and that's why they must do what they are doing.
Azli: I think I must make a clarification here. In Malaysia, when we refer to the Jews we really mean the Zionists - the government of Israel right now. So, it is not fair to use the word 'Jew' in this interview, as we really mean the Zionists. Did you know that Israelis aren't allowed into our country, and we cannot go to theirs?
FASOTE: Really?
Azli: Yes, it is because Malaysia is still one of the countries that does not recognize Israel as a state. For that reason, no Malaysian can go to Israel - you could try and get a visa, but it is impossible, as there is no Israeli embassy to go to (laughter). But, it was important for me to clarify this point of Jews versus Zionists, because it is unfair to lump all Jews together. There are some who oppose the Israeli government.
FASOTE: Yes, I have heard that there are some in their own army who refuse to fight.
Azli: Yes, and I am sure there are Jews in America who are not at all related to what the Zionist Israeli government is doing.
FASOTE: OK - next question. Do you think that Islam and the West can co-exist peacefully?
Azli: It happened once, in Spain, right?
FASOTE: But that was a West of the past. What about now?
Azli: Well, in Malaysia, we are living it, so it is not impossible. One of my lecturers in university was from India, and the first time he came here he was shocked to see two women walking side by side down the street. One woman - she was a Chinese woman in a very short skirt, so you could see her whole legs. The other woman was in full purda (Islamic coverings)! They were walking together, giggling and having fun. So, in Malaysia, we are living it, so it is not impossible.
Rohizaan: If we can make it happen here, why can't we make it happen anywhere else?
Azli: you see - when the Koran was being revealed to our Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, that document was for the whole world, not just for the Arabs alone. So, the possibility is there, somebody needs to get the message across. Our Prophet died 1400 years ago, but the message needs to continue. And right now, that is where the failure of the Muslims can be seen. We fail to propagate. Because, non-Muslim countries are very ignorant to what Islam is because the message does not go across. Don't talk about America - here, in Malaysia, we have a Chines neighbor - a Chinese Buddhist. This Buddhist - he doesn't know shit about Islam (laughter). This is our fault - we don't tell him anything. And we don't know shit about his religion either (laughter). Of course, I am saying this in a vulgar manner, but the point is that we don't care enough to even educate him, and until we do this it will be hard for others to understand the true Islam.
FASOTE: Do you think America's War on Terrorism will ultimately help or hurt humanity?
Rohizaan: To me personally, I think it will hurt humanity. To me, they are doing the war arrogantly. They are not doing the war the right way - the way it should be done.
FASOTE: So you are saying that you are in favor of the war, just not the way it is being fought?
Rohizaan: Well, no - there should be a way to handle terrorism other than war. There can be many ways - through law enforcement and proper investigation into things. For example - attacking Afghanistan without proof - that shouldn't have been done.
Mohammed: I think that when you talk about the War on Terrorism, I think Malaysia has very good experience from when we declare war on the Communists from 1946 to the 60s. The comparison is very similar. For example - the communists had a vision to take over all of southeast Asia, so they infiltrate the Chinese people into Malaysia to wage war against the government of the time. What the government did was - they realized that they had to win the heart of the Chinese community so that they would reject communism. One of the ways that they did this was that they uplifted the Chinese standard of living in Malaysia by creating special villages - like your Chinatowns. When the governments set up these new villages, they controlled the Chinese communities' communications with the communists. So, when the communists had no access to the people's minds that they were trying to control through psychology, they failed in their task. I would suggest that those who want to win the war on terror should do a study on Malaysia and see how we won the war on communism. Because the resemblance is almost the same. I mean - the communists attacked through terror - they blew up bridges, they blew up schools, they would go to people's houses and shoot them. There is a good book - 'The War on the Running Dogs'. You should read it and see how Malaysia, still a new country, just born in 1957, won the war on communism. We won, but it was at great cost, as many Malay Muslim soldiers and policemen were killed. So, I feel first you have to remove the source of terrorism itself. All the countries of the world should not be attacking terrorism but trying to remove its sources. Why do these people support terrorism? It is because of poverty, inequality, no freedom - they have been denied all the fundamental rights a man needs. So, if we can remove these sources, we will have won half the battle. And there will be no need to invest so much in bombs, in resources, in bullets - in fact, the Americans lost the war in Vietnam because they had no desire to win that war, but the Vietnamese won because they had won the hearts of their people.
FASOTE: OK - very interesting. Let's get a little positive - what is the best hing about Malaysia?
All 3: The food!
Azli: In Malaysia, whenever someone sees someone else they ask 'have you eaten? You must come to my house and eat!' (laughter).
Mohammed: We eat 24 hours a day.
Azli: Yeah - 5 meals a day!
Mohammed: Because of that, Malaysian people are some of the most unhealthiest people in the world. We have a high rate of cancer, diabetes, kidney failure - all because we love to eat!
Rohizaan: We love fat and cholesterol. Without fat, it is not food (laughter).
Mohammed: Another thing we have unique to our culture are open houses. Open houses are when one of the Malay cultures is having a celebration, they throw open their homes and invite everyone to join in. And, of course, the main attraction is the food. And the good thing is - when the Chinese prepare meals for their neighbors for Chinese New Year, they are sensitive to towards their Muslim friends and will serve halal meat. Maybe in another culture they would serve pork or non-halal meat, but in Malaysia it is different. When they prepare food they have in mind that their Muslim friends are coming and that there must be some food for them as well.
Azli: We have three main races here - Malay, Chinese and Indian. So - Indians don't eat cows. When we Muslims have our open house for Eid, we will make sure there is vegetarian food for the Hindus to eat.
FASOTE: Explain to me what an open house is.
Azli: It is when you invite all your friends to your house.
Rohizaan: It is like a party.
Mohammed: We are one of the few countries where people can go to the Prime Minister's house of or the King's house during any of the main cultures' events. People who visit here are shocked - how can you have 5000 people at the Prime Minister's house? Where are the security measures? Can you imagine the White House throwing open it's doors to anyone from the public on Christmas? Imagine the security measures! In Malaysia, we have these open houses, and that's what makes us Malaysian. We do it in a hall, we do it in a mosque, we do it in a field - we do it everywhere. Food is cheap, so it is great - we can feed everyone! If you tried to do it in London or America, you couldn't - it would be too expensive.
Rohizaan: I think the best thing about Malaysia is the people - our society lives together in harmony and doesn't care about the differences - in fact, we celebrate them.
FASOTE: Who is your hero?
Mohammed: My father. He is an example of what a Malaysian can do when given opportunity, when given freedom. When he chose to be in public service, he had no influential people to help him out, but he moved up the ranks all on his own. Through his job he also helped a lot of people - Malay, Indian, Chinese, it didn't matter to him who he helped. Prime Ministers, heads of state - they are only in your life for a brief time. But your father - God willing - will be in your life for 40 or 50 years, and I am fortunate to have a father who encourages me, persuades me to do good things, teaches me about good values, and shows me how to live in a multicultural society. In order for this tradition of multicultural pluralism to succeed in a country, it must be passed from father to son - the father needs to show the son how to be fair to everyone, regardless of race.
FASOTE: Thank so much to everyone for their time.
Only Azli is pictured here
